Curse

Ken Dei · Mar 13, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

The economy will balence itself when the number of popular gold sinks takes in as much gold as the monsters drop. Easy answer: Gold Sinks.

warkst · Mar 13, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by viet

i wish they went to silver pieces first. silver is valuable right?

WoW, anyone?

Gardar · Mar 13, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

I agree with many of the things you say, but if you are looking for a perfect economy system you should check out Eve online, there the whole game is based on the Marketing system.
But I really like the Economy system in Gw, and I've given it alot of thought, about what you say that the economy can kinda crash, and gold wont be worth anything like has happened in too many games.

dreamhunk · Mar 13, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

The economy will balence itself when the number of popular gold sinks takes in as much gold as the monsters drop. Easy answer: Gold Sinks.

I agree anets needs to make more content to make the more balance I am sure this would make alot rpg happy to as well.

Braggi · Mar 15, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

OK, my excuse is being an economics graduate... <snip>
Sorry if it was dull / inaccurate / unfounded/ bullshit

I had fun

I'm glad about the fun part. But don't quit your job yet to pursuit a game dev career...
I had some fun too, watching how you explained away any contradicting facts as temporary anomalies

It has been said several times, see especially MistressYichi - the economy is not broken, so there's no need to fix it.
When I arrive at Ascalon as a novice, I can buy most runes for 100g, have a very reasonable weapon (if need be) for less than 500g and 30 armor after approximately 5 hours, which can also be passed in the tutorial.

Back to the Basics - what is money for?

a unit for calculation purposes, increasing market information
universally accepted exchange item, easing trade
a means to store value for future consumption

So dropping gold altogether and returning to barter, as suggested in the thread, is nonsense. It would lead to establishing a new calculation unit (like sojs in D2) in no time, increase overall confusion and hamper trade.

To fulfill its task money must be divisible, relatively scarce and durable (check). In D2 gold lost its money function basicly because it was not scarce enough. This is not the case in GW.

What is inflation? We can almost use your short definition - the volume of available money grows faster than the volume of available and needed goods, so prices rise. But your analysis of why the amount of money is simply determined by game age is wrong. Moreover you just claimed without proof that the available goods (items) don't grow as fast. Amount is limited by inventory slots, agreed, but "rarety" is another growth dimension.

To study the economy it is sufficient to just look at PvE accounts, I will not state this any more.

For a single account created wealth (in gold) is
wealth = time X farming( level, equipment, skill),
with farming creating gold and items valued at trader buy prices.

Player trading prices are irrelevant for overall wealth creation, they just constitute wealth redistribution within the player base. While this is a determining factor for creating individual wealth, macroeconomics are unaffected.

Now, time spent farming in game varies vastly over accounts. But MMO operators know there's an average life time of active accounts, which is the relevant factor. This average life time of an account thus forms the upper limit of time spent farming. The number of active accounts at any given time just scales things up or down.
So your thesis of unlimited gold growth because of unlimited increasing game life just drops dead here.

Now to the farming part - leveling up fast, good equipment and overall knowing how to play and where to farm make this efficient. So a dedicated and able farmer is the game equivalent to an industrial, efficient producer. If too many people "learn" to farm (as by guides), one option for the operator is to make farming harder to limit the inflow of wealth (the mentioned "nerf" of farming).
Worst case would be everybody is a competent player, has one slot with the "most efficient" farmer and is just plodding along creating wealth. Sounds somewhat dull, but this is the other limit for wealth creation ingame.

With the above model in mind, price spikes should rather happen after mayor balance patches - when people adjust their equipment or try out new builds. Another source of price volatility can be a massive change of average account age (like new players from the christmas trade, or the addon) or the introduction of new items, until a new equilibrum is reached.

This was just supply side - demand is another relevant factor. There are no ever better weapons or armor - I can store several different sets for different tasks, but thats it. After that demand is for fashion purposes.

The more efficient farming() becomes, the more runes, weapons etc. are created - but demand is limited. So prices for most of them stay low because of overproduction - if they are just a byproduct of farming the "valuable" comodities, they cost a lot less in terms of money=time than if I had to farm them myself (see most runes). Lower price limit is trader buy price plus the supplier's cost of creation (kit use). Upper price limit is individual and basically my own farming proficiency and the actual value I place on my time - if I must pay 2 hours worth of gold for something I can farm in one hour, I try to farm it myself, unless I have lots of spare gold but limited time to play.

Obviously demand is also affected by average account age and age spread; but this is an altogether different issue. The economy will collapse if there are not enough money sinks or if average farming gets too easy.

A word about taxes - bad idea. Either you tax gold, than it loses part of its value storage functionality and rich people will just evade this by using a comodity instead. Or you somehow tax playing time (repair costs, anyone?) - this punishes the casual and role player and just gets another balance sheet item for the hardcore farmer.

dreamhunk · Mar 15, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braggi

I'm glad about the fun part. But don't quit your job yet to pursuit a game dev career...
I had some fun too, watching how you explained away any contradicting facts as temporary anomalies

It has been said several times, see especially MistressYichi - the economy is not broken, so there's no need to fix it.
When I arrive at Ascalon as a novice, I can buy most runes for 100g, have a very reasonable weapon (if need be) for less than 500g and 30 armor after approximately 5 hours, which can also be passed in the tutorial.

Back to the Basics - what is money for?

a unit for calculation purposes, increasing market information
universally accepted exchange item, easing trade
a means to store value for future consumption

So dropping gold altogether and returning to barter, as suggested in the thread, is nonsense. It would lead to establishing a new calculation unit (like sojs in D2) in no time, increase overall confusion and hamper trade.

To fulfill its task money must be divisible, relatively scarce and durable (check). In D2 gold lost its money function basicly because it was not scarce enough. This is not the case in GW.

What is inflation? We can almost use your short definition - the volume of available money grows faster than the volume of available and needed goods, so prices rise. But your analysis of why the amount of money is simply determined by game age is wrong. Moreover you just claimed without proof that the available goods (items) don't grow as fast. Amount is limited by inventory slots, agreed, but "rarety" is another growth dimension.

To study the economy it is sufficient to just look at PvE accounts, I will not state this any more.

For a single account created wealth (in gold) is
wealth = time X farming( level, equipment, skill),
with farming creating gold and items valued at trader buy prices.

Player trading prices are irrelevant for overall wealth creation, they just constitute wealth redistribution within the player base. While this is a determining factor for creating individual wealth, macroeconomics are unaffected.

Now, time spent farming in game varies vastly over accounts. But MMO operators know there's an average life time of active accounts, which is the relevant factor. This average life time of an account thus forms the upper limit of time spent farming. The number of active accounts at any given time just scales things up or down.
So your thesis of unlimited gold growth because of unlimited increasing game life just drops dead here.

Now to the farming part - leveling up fast, good equipment and overall knowing how to play and where to farm make this efficient. So a dedicated and able farmer is the game equivalent to an industrial, efficient producer. If too many people "learn" to farm (as by guides), one option for the operator is to make farming harder to limit the inflow of wealth (the mentioned "nerf" of farming).
Worst case would be everybody is a competent player, has one slot with the "most efficient" farmer and is just plodding along creating wealth. Sounds somewhat dull, but this is the other limit for wealth creation ingame.

With the above model in mind, price spikes should rather happen after mayor balance patches - when people adjust their equipment or try out new builds. Another source of price volatility can be a massive change of average account age (like new players from the christmas trade, or the addon) or the introduction of new items, until a new equilibrum is reached.

This was just supply side - demand is another relevant factor. There are no ever better weapons or armor - I can store several different sets for different tasks, but thats it. After that demand is for fashion purposes.

The more efficient farming() becomes, the more runes, weapons etc. are created - but demand is limited. So prices for most of them stay low because of overproduction - if they are just a byproduct of farming the "valuable" comodities, they cost a lot less in terms of money=time than if I had to farm them myself (see most runes). Lower price limit is trader buy price plus the supplier's cost of creation (kit use). Upper price limit is individual and basically my own farming proficiency and the actual value I place on my time - if I must pay 2 hours worth of gold for something I can farm in one hour, I try to farm it myself, unless I have lots of spare gold but limited time to play.

Obviously demand is also affected by average account age and age spread; but this is an altogether different issue. The economy will collapse if there are not enough money sinks or if average farming gets too easy.

A word about taxes - bad idea. Either you tax gold, than it loses part of its value storage functionality and rich people will just evade this by using a comodity instead. Or you somehow tax playing time (repair costs, anyone?) - this punishes the casual and role player and just gets another balance sheet item for the hardcore farmer.

what if the tax was in form of food. Say you farm alot with charactor.Then you have to eat alot, then you to buy more food. The rpg players would love it. The farmers would have to work harder.

dreamhunk · Mar 15, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melkor of ZoSo

I think ANet just needs to stop getting so involved. It's PVE, for God's sake. You're against the environment. What difference would it make if everyone was runnin around with Crystaline Swords and FOW Armor. Make some really hard impossible quest that tests your SKILL, not the time spent farming, to determine what kind of weapons you get. Sure, that sounds like PvP, but that's more competitive tha some people like.

Point being:
Stop trying to make things so right and just make it fun. Give more Ecto drops. Make gold easier to get. et cetera.

I agree with you on this one, lets have the big ships to own. Lets have have solo quest for one person. Lets have the umber weapons. lets have the cool armor.

Lumpen · May 04, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

somebody mentioned it already, but if you try and sell your +30 pummel for an uber price and try buy it for a noob price, then you won't get anywhere. the people who sell and buy for reasonable prices get the weaps/mods moving.

there might be the Mr "i shit on smite monks because i'm so rich" buying and selling these weaps and mods for really outrageous prices, but for everyone of his kind there are fifty people who are buying and selling at reasonable prices.

we're looking at one profession that people play and saying that it'll break the game, except there are whole guilds made for helping the noobs find farming spots, giving tips, helping with quests etc. i run into beleagured 20's all the time who just want to get rid of stuff for cheap to help somebody out. they sell greens for 1K all the time. i know that greens are a somewhat bad example but it proves that there are people who want to help other players. they're just playing a less popular role in the game, but it still has presence in the game.

one thought i had on the armor is that it sends alot of that farming money back into the game. you get people desiring this megauber armor at droks and there's a hell of alot of money that's heading straight outta the game. i say let em desire it and let the rest of us rock their stingy ass

as a final note i would like to give a shout out to gdubs for making in-game entrepeunership (however the hell you spell that :P) thrive!!! somebody mentioned getting wood planks and going to the sardy sanitarium material guy. HELL YES!!! do crazy shit and find a new way to get money. it makes the game alot of fun, plus this particular way of making money involves buying from a merc, which sends money out of the game.

you guys are rad for talking about this, it's really interesting to read!

Hunter Sharparrow · May 04, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

First this is a game and not the real world. To compare the two would be comparing apple to oranges. The games economy is much simpler then the real worlds but at the same time not as simple as people tend to believe. Now anet has it so gold is generated (enemies, quest, merchants, traders) but also has places where it is destroyed (merchants, traders, FoW and UW access, donation to statues). I do agree that there is a need for more money sinks but it has to be ones that people will actually use. Paying donations to the gods for a temporary boost in moral and regen is very popular. The access to FoW and UW is more popular but people tend to get that money back and more while they are down there. That leaves the merchants, traders and crafters as the only real money sink in the game. Well once you have the armor you want and the weapon you want all dyed the way you want with the runes you want, then you have no need for the money sinks. There needs to be a money sink everyone will have to pay into no matter how far they are in the game.

Or you can do what anet already did and will probably continue to do. Lower the value of the items my making them easier to find. AKA Increased the drop rates. Notice that the prices of rare weapons and mods are much higher than rare items sold at the traders. That's because these items aren't sold at any trader and therefore the players determine the price. The problem used to be (and still is to some extent) that is was farmers that were finding these rare items and with their lust for profit (the same lust that has them farming instead of playing the game) would charge obsene amounts of money. It has very little to do with supply and demand but at the same time has everything to do with it. Farmers make the shallow argument that their farming is bringing prices down by increasing the supply to meet the demand. Makes sense but it is just not true. I've been to lions district one and watch what items were being sold and guess what? Most were selling the same weapon for the same high price.

That proves that the price set on these items are not based on the supply as said by farmers (and those who took basic economics) but rather were being set based on how rare the item drops. In other words the price put on drop only rare (which are the sought after) items where based on the % chance of the normal player (who actually playes the missions and quest and doesn't farm) finding one themself through the course of beating the game. Anet has increased the drop rate of rare items because they saw this problem and now the normal player has a much better chance at finding the items themself or atleast find a good enough one that they can trade for the one they want.

As for the items that are sold at the traders, well that has to do alot with human laziness and farmers getting the most money for their time. Supply to meet the demand plays only a very small part that is nearly unoticeable.

Matix411 · May 09, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

The reason is habit. Face it... other games made the rare type items vogue, so now all games will have similar.

Why not just drop the whole concept altogether, as well as gold? All it adds to is farming, ebay and grief. Still have ectos, sure... but enough so anyone that wants them can get them easily or find someone with plenty to share. Still have fellblades... but without gold or 'rare' drops they're worth the same as any other sword, just look different.

Don't breed the greed to feed the need. Barter system ftw!

I totally agree.
I'm only saying this because I, as a player, find it quite difficult to come up with certain amounts of money quickly.
For instance;
Because I was never really into the whole farming scene before, I'd spend a good 6-8 hours a day (I don't do much anyway) simply trying to kill as much as I can and do quests and missions over and over until I could muster up enough gold to get a something like Drok's armor.
it's almost 10k for the frigging materials if you buy them, and it takes a hell of a long time 'saving up' all the materials, if you happen to even find them.
Ectos? I've never even seen one.
Why? Because I'm still learning a lot about the game and my character, thus farming areas which provide these drops are often unaccessable by myself, because I die in a matter of seconds.
Call me a noob, whatever, we all started somewhere, and I'm saying for those beginners that want DECENT items, it's a hassle and a half trying to get the money.
I would rather spend time finding 400 tanned hide squares, than 400 tanned hide squares and 15k. It's almost triple the work and I cannot stand it.
As much as I'm online all the time, I would rather be having fun killing things instead of stressing and rushing to kill things to get a hauberk, that I can't wear because I don't have the rest of the armor set, due to the fact that I have to send another 3 days saving for one more item out of that set.

Either drop the gold all-together, or increase the drop-rate to the point where it's not going to make the economy any more retarded than it already is.
I find it hilarious that the most important items needed, such as ectos, can only be obtained in those 'elitist' areas, which I have rarely gone and hardly been through.
Of course the people who have been playing GW since its initial release have a lot of money, they've had over a year to keep up their funds and master every way possible of getting it. But again, for the newcomers, we get to stand around in irritation wondering how on earth all these people are getting 15k or FOW armor.

I think it's ridiculous the amount of people that can afford FOW armor for more than one character under their account.

I remember when I saw ONE person with FOW armor, and I was astonished.

Now I don't even care, I just find it humerous that either A, someone has played and saved THAT long, or B, someone cheats their way through the system to get money faster, and get it in abundance compared to the rest of the community.

I find money easier to make in Factions than Prophecies, but it's at such a random quantity, by the time I get enough money for anything, I need something else like skills or runes.
10-60k for a rune that simply ups your stats by 3?
I would never have the money to afford that let alone actually find one.
Even the price cap on skills gets annoying.
You reach the 1k mark and you're at the point where you NEED to buy more important, beneficial skills, that you sacrifice your savings to get thus causing more painstaking hours of saving.

All in all I'm tired of the tedious saving, and people are right, this is turning into exactly what Diablo 2 was wherein everyone begins paying with SoJ's as currency rather than money, giving the newcomers the scraps.

On a final note, I'm finding that the general increase in money that veterans are raking in is causing an increase in negative attitude changes in the community. Newcomers come asking questions, and get shot down because they are noobs simply for the fact that they aren't wearing 15k armor.
That's bullshit.
The people WITH the money are beginning to think they are so high and mighty, and the negativity they show sometimes completely ruins the game for others. I've seen people quit because not one single person would help them whenever they needed it, not one.
Someone with 2mill can't even spare 500gp to a player so he can buy a crafter weapon yet someone with 3k is willing to sacrifice what little they have to help out? There's something terribly wrong with that.

unda dawg · May 09, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

[quote]Most of you will probably find this really really dull. Don’t worry, I neither expect anybody to read it all, or expect them to have any positive feedback….. would be nice to be wrong though[quote]

i read it

towards the end u started saying the economy was unfair to noobs because they had to work hard. but when everyone starts out they have to work hard to start getting money and once u start getting money it shood keep getting easier. then u said that there is an endless amount of money. yes there technically is but it is so spread out and ppl cood keep getting more but i dont c a problem with that. its not harming anyone.

inflation-u said that the population wood decrease because ppl wood start to quit. theres over 1,000,000 copies sold of prophecies about 4,000,000 chars JUST PROPHECIES. now factions is out, theres even more. it wood take a LONG time for the population to decrease dramtically because most of the ppl hoo play, r addicted. (like me) regardless of too much money there is, and striving noobs.